Manoj Nathwani is world traveler, a tech enthusiast, and an avid reader (currently, he’s very into neuroscience). Manoj is exactly the kind of person I think of when I hear people say that you can get just as good an education with a library card as you can at a university; he’s endlessly curious and seemingly never runs out of new things to dive into. And he’s a big advocate for the idea that there’s no right way to build a happy life. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
 
When you were 17, what did you want to be?
 
I had absolutely no idea. I wasn't academic in the slightest. I actually did pretty badly in all my schooling until I was about 17, and then I slowly started to get ahold of things. But by that point, there was only so much I could do.
 
I was very passionate about doing Legos as a kid, and then as a teenager I was doing a lot of robotics stuff. I was really into tech stuff, a bit of design, a bit of filmmaking, a bit of Google SketchUp stuff. I've always liked jumping into stuff. I didn't actually know I was already doing programming. You think it's playing but you really are learning some good stuff there.
 
How did you decide to attend Brunel University?
 
I did pretty terribly on my exams, so I didn't get into the college that I wanted to get into. As a last resort, I ended up doing this very vocational program in the realm of tech and media. It was all projects-based, which meant that I was able to touch every single area of the tech industry and media and design and bits of engineering. I had two years of just creative exploring, using computers for everything. It was really enjoyable.
 
After that two-year course, I was caught up and I got into a pretty good university,
Brunel University in London. It's at the very west end of London in a small town called Uxbridge. It's the best university for tech and engineering in London, which is where I wanted to be.
 
How did you choose your major?
 
I signed up to do a computer science degree specializing in artificial intelligence, because I thought that it was cool, it was the future, and there was a bit of robotics involved so I thought that would be fun. Before starting university, everyone I told that I was doing computer science and AI warned me that it was really boring. I hadn't really done any programming before that, so I decided to just start playing around with programming to see what I thought.
 
I was playing around with it, and I thought, "If I'm going to make something, what should I make?" I decided to make a search engine and play around with the data and see what happened. I was really going in completely clueless about programming. I literally had to Google search how to make a Google search.
 
I remember telling my dad about it when he got home from work and he was interested in it as well. He ran our family company with his brother selling computer hardware and keyboards, and doing IT procurement. He told me that they were about to pay for this really fancy service that would allow them to compare the pricing on their website with their competitors. He said that the program I was building looked kind of like that. And that led me to actually build this program for them.
 
I worked on it for a few months, and then I started university and put it on pause for a time. But I got pretty bored of university quite quickly. They tried to teach me programming using PowerPoints, and I’m more of creative person. I got bored with the structured learning, and I'm not really into the whole partying and drinking culture thing. So then I went back to this project.
 
I finished building it at the end of my first year of university, and it was really dumb and basic. I could probably do it in a few hours now, but I had no idea what I was doing then. I gave it to my dad, and they actually used it, and their entire business changed. It really, really helped them. And that would have happened if they had used another service as well, but I made them bespoke things and it was free.
 
They got so excited, and they basically said, “This is so valuable. Can you just continue building it and we'll sell it for you?” So I went back to university two weeks before starting my second year, and I said, "I have this project. Can I see what the deal is here?" And the university was really supportive. They said, "Go out, and you can come back in 12 months and you won't miss out on anything."
 
So my project turned into a product that we could sell people. They loved it as well. They were all different companies, like one sold German power tools and the second one sold Swiss luggage. There were also many, many companies doing what we did, like word-for-word. The only difference was I was 17, so it was dirt-cheap. And also, no one had touched this industry in years - all these products were 5-10 years old - so the design and the UX were not there at all. I think one of the best compliments we got from our early customers was, "My two-year-old daughter can use this."
 
I did that for a year, and we got a few customers and it was fantastic. Then we got into this really swanky accelerator in London for e-commerce. Obviously this would get in the way of my going back to university, so I asked if I could take another year off. And again, they were super supportive, and said that I could come back in 12 months.
 
By then, my dad had basically quit his job and joined mine. Everyone always asks me what it was like starting a company with my parent. But the thing is, we never worked in the same office. He did sales and I built the thing; there was this clear wall. It was this perfect Steve Jobs/Wozniak thing. There's no crossover but you're both skilled at your own thing. And I think the key factor was that we just trusted each other.
 
I joined the accelerator for a six-month program - we were part of their first batch. They were big business guys, so their goal was to try and match us up with industry leaders. That worked out fantastically for us because we just learned so much; it was unbelievable. But then, eventually, there was this disconnect where I had no interest in doing big business corporate stuff. We had a pretty good small company thing going.
 
We had access to a bunch of fantastic mentors, and one of them in particular was really outstanding. He sat us down one day, and said, "Forget about all this startup stuff. Figure out what you want in life, because right now you have options. Right now you're in scrappy start-up phase. You can build a rocket ship or you can just run a business with your friends and family where you make good money.”
 
Luckily, both my dad and I were looking for exactly the same thing. We both highly respect good work-life balance. And also, being in that environment, we really didn't want to turn into those big business guys. It was a realization that we just wanted to run a good business, and we were really happy doing our thing. So we did that, we ran that company for four years.
 
And then we hit a bit of a wall. We had a bunch of really cool products, and all our customers really loved the products and stuff, but the way the tech was going, we were starting to do things with automating and using fancy words like machine learning, which was confusing and scary to the people we were selling the product to. So I sold most of my shares and decided to leave. And my friends took over and did their thing.
 
By then, I was 21, and I took a little break to travel for a year, but I got bored after about two months because I was still really passionate about doing tech stuff. So after selling the company, I wanted to find a tech team with smart people who I could learn from. I didn’t really want to be exposed to business anymore; I just wanted to nerd out and do my tech thing. My one rule was that it had to be something socially ethical. So I joined a really great healthcare company in London and worked there for two years.
 
The goal was to connect hospitals with freelance doctors, so that they could come in when a doctor was ill or they just couldn’t come into work that day. I had no formal understanding of anything, so joining a team as a junior and being surrounded by very smart people in a very fast-paced environment was fantastic. And being at the bottom of someone else's company was really fun.
 
After two years, I decided to leave and be a contractor. And then my old company came back and said, "We really need you. In the last two years that you've been away, we’ve added lots of customers, but we haven't updated the tech." They had tried outsourcing this to a bunch of companies, and that had cost them a lot. I looked into all the tech stuff, and I agreed to redo the website and the data stuff. And then I said, “If you pay me a monthly fee, I’ll keep it going. And if you ever have anything that goes wrong, just phone me up and I'll fix it straight away.”
 
After doing my own scrappy startup, and then learning from a real startup, I was still entirely driven by tech. I'm not really into business stuff. I want to research what cool new tech is out there, and then I want to build stuff. It's almost like, I don't really care what I'm building, I just enjoy building the thing. Now I have full creative control and it's amazing because I can do whatever cool tricks I want to do.  I’ve been doing that for two years now, and I basically agreed to be available five days a month and build whatever new stuff they need.
 
I read the book The 4-Hour Workweek to try and understand what I had just done. That book really did change the way I perceived things. Because it explains what do you do with yourself, how do you live a life. Especially growing up in London, you're conditioned to work. You don't understand that really, there's so much more to life than just work. And that really taught me to go seek out adventure.
 
I do enjoy the startup thing, so now I'm playing at problem-solving outside of work. Like two years ago, I booked a hostel in Morocco and told a bunch of people to join me, and five of them did. And the we spent two months in Morocco learning to surf and working and stuff.
 
I think that what I like is combining travel with a hobby. So in Morocco it was surfing, because surfing is a nice, physical activity, and it's the only thing I've found where every day you become slightly better. Yoga and Bali was my next big thing, exploring the whole hippie thing. And that's also when I really got into reading. And now, I spend more time reading than doing anything else.
 
I still have this tech attitude, so at first I read a bunch of books about how tech affects society, about tech and democracy and how they are not actually fully compatible. And I've always been really fascinated by ethics, morality, and philosophy, so I did a philosophy course on YouTube. What I liked about it was that it gave me a shallow understanding of a really big topic. And then, as you're going along, suddenly you find things that really pique your interest, and then you can read books about it.
 
Looking back, what seems clear to you now?
 
I think the big thing to get fully across is that you don't have to go as fast as everyone else. If you're going to be in the workforce for say 50 or 60 years, there's no reason to speed through university straight away. If you just slow down and explore, it's so much better. It feels like university would be really fantastic if it was in your late 20s because then you could really learn something. You can put this on hold for five years, come back, and still be okay.
 
I want to avoid saying that people should travel, because it's not really traveling; it's having the time to think and to explore in whatever way that you want to. Maybe you have to get out of the culture that you're brought up in in order to do that. But I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm still in the phase of, "Wow, there's so much more to life than just the startup thing, or the career thing.” I'm still generally impressed by that.  

​As we tip into the second half of the summer, I’m starting to work with my students on their personal statements. We spend time discussing experiences they’ve had like starting their first job and learning how to be an adult in the world, or getting completely lost on a camping trip with friends, or that summer they spent teaching themselves how to code. We come up with an outline and then I send them off to write their first drafts, always eager to see what they come up with.
 
For the next five months, I spend a substantial amount of my day editing these essays, pushing my students to get more personal, to think about what aspects of this experience will stay with them in the future. And every year, I start to notice one common mistake that all my students seem to be making. This year, the thing that keeps coming up is the phrase, “and many other things.”
 
This phrase usually appears in a list. While talking about the summer camp they go to every year, a student might write that they spend their time kayaking, tie-dying t-shirts, and many other things. A student who loves art might describe how she enjoys working with acrylic paint, pens, and many other things. Or a student who’s working as a marketing intern might explain how he is responsible for organizing focus groups, researching new products, and many other things.
 
While discussing this particular rhetorical convention with one of my students, we jokingly imagined what it would be like if people used this phrase in other areas of their life, like at work. For instance, when I was younger, I worked as a Starbucks barista. Customers would often ask me what was in a Java Chip Frappuccino or a skinny vanilla latte or a matcha tea latte. Starbucks is all about providing legendary customer service, so it would not have gone over well if I had replied, “Milk, sugar, and many other things.”
 
Likewise, many of my friends work remotely, so they don’t get the traditional face time with their bosses that people who work in offices do. Remote employees are therefore much more proactive about communicating with their supervisors, and making sure that their bosses know that just because they’re not in the office (and off on a Mediterranean island somewhere), doesn’t mean they’re not working hard. Many remote employees send weekly or daily updates summarizing the projects they’re currently working on, but it would not be super productive if that update read, “I finished revising the content for the new website, coordinated with the marketing department, and many other things.”
 
Specificity matters – at work, in your college essays, and many other places (ha). There’s something satisfying about a list of three, but if you genuinely only have two things to share, leave it at two. But my guess is, if you look a little harder, you can probably come up with one more example. You could probably even come up with many other things. 

Olivia Cheng is a senior project manager for a language school based in Tokyo. I loved hearing Olivia’s story because I genuinely could not predict what was going to happen next. But there was always a thread of learning something new – usually languages – and meeting new people. Which is why her current life of traveling and working remotely makes perfect sense. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
 
When you were 17, what did you want to be?
 
I had a really good accounting teacher, so I was going to be an accountant. I don't think my high school had a lot of choices, so it was either that or dance. And I was pretty good with numbers, so I thought, “Sure, why not?” Also, I heard from my aunt's brother-in-law, who was an accountant, that they earn a lot; they have to work long hours, but then they can retire early.
 
I lived in Hong Kong until I was 14, and then I moved to Victoria, BC. I had hated my Hong Kong junior high school since the first day. When we arrived, I opened my eyes and thought, "Why did my mom take me to a prison?" It looked exactly like a prison. And I thought, "Oh, no." Most of the teachers were kind of harsh, and the whole vibe was just bad.
 
Because my mom used to teach at the International School, I became friends with her students, so I knew a lot of kids who went to the International School. They were all very cool and could speak fluent English. I told my mom I either wanted to go to the International School, or I wanted to go back to Canada. International School was too expensive, so I moved back to Canada. I went there by myself - I have been very independent since I was young - and I lived with my aunt.
 
How did you decide to attend University of Victoria?
 
I actually applied to a whole lot of universities and they all accepted me, but I didn’t want to move out of my comfort zone. I was thinking of going to Waterloo and University of Toronto, but I thought, "It's so cold there in the winter. I don't want to be cold." So Victoria had the best weather and my family, so I stayed in Victoria. Looking back, I'm happy I made that decision. It made me who I am. And the people that I met are friends that I still have.
 
How did you choose your major?
 
At U Vic, we had to do one year of general ed, and then we could declare our major. During that one year, I realized that there was no accounting major at U Vic. So I decided to do business. I started with the most basic course, which was economics, but I failed. And then I retook it, and I got a B or a C. And by that point, I was really sick of all those financial terms - as soon as I see those terms, I get a headache.
 
So I thought, “Okay, no more future as a businesswoman for me.” And then I got really interested in linguistics. I had been interested in languages before - I studied Japanese in high school and then I took French and Mandarin. So I looked at the linguistics program. It looked interesting, and I got to learn all the languages that I wanted to like Spanish, Italian, and German.

So I majored in linguistics and minored in Japanese studies where we got to study the culture, movies, history, and literature of Japanese culture. I still watch Japanes dramas and sometimes read Japanese magazines. I love it. I see that as a practice. The funny thing is, my Japanese seems to have gotten better since I moved out of Japan. I sometimes even dream in Japanese.
 
How did you get from college to where you are now?
 
After I graduated, I moved back to Hong Kong because my mom said she wanted me to come home. I was a little reluctant, but I felt that I should do that as a good daughter. But I was jobless for almost nine months because of the SARS epidemic.
The economy was terrible, the housing market dropped greatly, nobody went out, and people were dying every day. It was a really depressing time. My parents couldn’t even come to my graduation ceremony because they would’ve had to be quarantined for two weeks.
 
My first job in Hong Kong was for my uncle. He is a director and screenwriter and he opened a very small movie production company. They hired me to be the secretary, the cleaner, HR, basically to do everything. It was interesting, but it was very stressful too. It was my first job, and I had no experience, but I learned a lot from that job.  That only lasted for two months and then the company closed down.
 
Then my best friend from high school called me and said, "I was in an elevator this morning, and this guy asked me if I knew anyone who knows Japanese. They need someone to translate for their magazine.” So I went to the interview and I got the job. I spent two and a half years translating articles from Japanese magazines and then doing a rough synthesis of the topic in Cantonese. Japanese magazines have really good topics, and they wanted to use those. I learned a lot about design and art from that, and I really liked it.
 
I also worked part-time at a kindergarten during my time at the magazine. My friend had been working there but she had to move to US, so I was kind of helping her out, and I just thought it was interesting. I was a teacher assistant shadowing an autistic student. It was really hard. I got back pain because I was always leaning over, and I had to repeat myself a thousand times a day. But I learned a lot, and the kid I shadowed was so cute.
 
Later on, they promoted me to be a journalist at the magazine, so I started going around to new restaurants and press conferences. I loved all the freebies, and I still got to use my linguistics skills. But then one of my coworkers, a senior journalist, asked me "Is this a job you want to do for the rest of your life? If it is, you should get more serious about it." I thought about what he said, and I realized that I didn't want to be a journalist long-term. Around that time was when online magazines started to come about and print magazines started to close down, so we needed a lot of ads. It started to feel very materialistic, so I said, “Nope! Not for me!"
 
I left that job and went backpacking in Europe for two months. I think that was the first time that I traveled by myself. It was the greatest experience; I don't think I could ever recreate it. After that, people kept telling me, “You like traveling so much, you do so much research, you should work at a travel agency." So I did. I got a job at a travel agency, but it was just booking things for people all day and it wasn’t very interesting. The only thing I learned was the difference between a twin room and double room. And that breakfasts are always free if you ask for it.
 
So I quit. Then a friend approached me to work in marketing for her father’s company that sold watches and electronics. I wrote press releases and hosted press conferences. I got to collaborate with the design team a lot like how to make the marketing materials look nice. That job really helped me with my presentation skills and understanding how advertising works.
 
I ended up working there for two years, and then I hit a point where I was not happy about my job, not happy about my friend group, not happy about my boyfriend, not happy about my life in general. My younger cousin went to Japan to study Japanese for a year, and my other cousin decided to join too. They invited me to come and I said, “I'm too old now.” My mom heard me and she said "You're not too old; you should go." So the three of us went to Japan, but we went to different parts of the city so we didn't really see each other that often.
 
Then one year became two years became three years and then four years. I studied Japanese and then I started working part-time six months after I moved there. I'd do one-on-one lessons in cafes teaching Cantonese. I also found a job at a language company that needed a Cantonese host for their video lessons. When I applied, they told me that they had already found someone else, but after looking at my resume they thought I would be a good manager. So I went in for an interview, and the boss liked me and I started working part-time. After two years, I started working full-time, and I’ve been doing that job for nine years now. And I am happy that I get to use my linguistics skills, because I'm still interested in it.
 
After being in Japan for four years, I didn’t want to live alone there anymore. My bosses were really kind about me moving. I moved back to Hong Kong, and at that time, my parents were living with my grandpa and taking care of him. I'm happy that I moved back then because my grandpa passed away while I was there, so it was good to spend some time with him before that. I spent almost three years in Hong Kong, and then I moved back to Vancouver.
 
Looking back, what seems clear to you now?
 
I was always so happy in all the jobs that I've had. Sometimes I find the job challenging, but it's a good kind of challenge, like writing and journalism. That really opened up my perspective and I also got to travel, which showed me that I should travel more.
 
My friends helped me a lot. I got two of my longest jobs through my friends. Personally, I'm not really into networking. When I was younger, I didn't want to get anything because of connections. But later on, I learned that you've got to do it, especially living in Hong Kong, or else you're not going to get anything.
 
The advice that I always give is don't overthink. Don't be too worried about where you're going, what you're going to do. You don't have to have the answer now. Even in your late 20s, many people still don't know what they want to do, but that's fine. The universe will lead you somewhere.

Arleen Wiryo is a financial consultant working with startups in Bali, a job that has given her the opportunity to return home to Indonesia. But before coming back home, she spent time in Arizona, Los Angeles, France, and Singapore, working in both tech and finance. Arleen’s international professional journey is becoming the new normal, but for much of her career, she has been creating her own path. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
 
When you were 17, what did you want to be?
 
I still remember it, because it was so different from where I am today. I had this clear image of, “I'm going to go to school, I'm going to get married and have a family, but I still want to be able to keep my career.” So with that in mind, I went through the list of majors that I could pick, and it was either engineering or med school. I didn't really like engineering much, because I'm not so good at physics. But I was pretty good at math, so I went down the list and saw computer science. I liked programming in high school. And in terms of a career, it would be possible to work from home as a programmer and care for my family. So that's how I picked computer programming.
 
How did you decide to attend Arizona State University?
 
My dad had a very strict condition that I could not live in cold weather; we are originally from Indonesia, and he was worried about my health. So that limited me to southern states. At the time, I had this one book on schools in the US, but it had hundreds of schools. I didn’t really know how to pick. I think I applied to Georgia Tech, UT Austin, San Jose State, and Arizona State. It was very random. And then another requirement that my family had is that I had to be in same city as my brother who is four years older than me. He was applying for his master's at the time, and the only place where we both got accepted was Arizona State.
 
I enrolled in fall 1997, and soon after that we had the Asian economic crisis. Luckily, I was able to get special scholarships for students who came from Asia who had been affected by the crisis. Then I only had to pay in-state tuition, which was really affordable. I was also allowed to work off-campus so that helped a bit. The first job I remember was working for this on-campus banquet service as a waiter. Then I did grading as well during the semester. And then I got an internship at a software company, which was really good.
 
How did you choose your major?
 
I came in as a computer science major, and I didn't really have any doubts or thoughts about changing my major because in 1997, 1998, IT was the industry to be in. Arizona State had a really good computer science program and we had good professors and I learned a lot. But I graduated in 2001 right when the bubble burst, so then it became a bit difficult to find a job. So I went to USC for my master's in computer science, and I picked machine learning as my specialization.
 
Nowadays people say to me, “Why you didn't do machine learning?" but it was a little bit early. At that time, there were very few companies that would hire someone with a master's degree. But one of my professors at USC offered me a research assistant opportunity. And my master’s does actually provide an interesting background now that machine learning and artificial intelligence is in.
 
When I discussed the research assistant position with my mom, she said, “Can you imagine yourself living as a poor student for an additional, 3, 4, 5 years?” It was actually quite a serious moment of decision, but I figured if I really wanted to go to school later on, I could go back. So I decided not to take the job, and I started doing IT consulting.
 
My first job was with a company that was bought by GE Aviation that specialized in systems to optimize the logistics for airplanes. I was hired to help them with one of their projects, but I found that after I was there for three months, I needed more interaction with people. So it just so happened that one of my high school classmates was looking for consultants to help her company. The only requirement was that you needed to know some programing and you were willing to travel 90% - 100% of the time.
 
So I joined this boutique consulting company that specialized in automated testing. My first assignment was in Seattle, and I was there for about 10 months. And then I was promoted to the pre-sales team where I worked very closely with the director of sales for the West Coast who became my first professional mentor. He really helped me mature and think about what is it that I want to do in life.
 
So I ended up working for that company for about three and a half years before I realized that there wasn’t much upward movement. That was also the eighth year that I had been in the U.S. and I started to feel like I wanted to go back to Asia so I could be closer to my family. At that time, IT was not a significant industry in Asia, and I didn't really see much growth in the near future so it would have been difficult for me to find a job in Asia in IT. So my mentor suggested that I look into some business schools.
 
A friend of mine suggested that I look at some international schools, so I read the profile for INSEAD and I went to their open house in San Francisco and met with alumni and other prospective students. INSEAD has a lot of focus on international and multicultural topics. In my year, we had students from 66 countries in a class of 480 students. Their first campus was in Fontainebleau, France and now they have a campus in Abu Dhabi and they just recently opened a smaller hub in San Francisco. They have a campus in Singapore as well, so I felt like it was something that would help me make my move to Asia.
 
It was only a 10-month program, so I did my first six months in France and then four months in Singapore. Unfortunately, I graduated in December 2009 after the global economic crisis had just happened. Asia was not impacted as badly as the US, but the job market was still quite tough. I spent a couple months looking at what kind of projects I could do in Indonesia. I had to rebuild a lot of my network because most of my network was in the US. But I finally got a full-time job in August, 2010.
 
When I was in business school, I realized that finance was actually very interesting. It's a bit more than just balancing the debits and credits, which was my impression before. I decided to do private equity after I graduated, and I knew that there were several firms in Indonesia. It just so happened that one of the private equity firms was looking for a new team member and my resume was right in front of them. It was very quick process and then I was hired.
 
Private equity, in short, is when a firm collects monies from pension funds, from some family office, from many sources. Then they have one big fund and their task is to invest in private companies. The firm works with the management of the private company and then they sell it again at a profit. It’s kind of a sexy business for people coming out of business schools because it does pay really well. And it provided some credibility for me making the jump into finance from tech.
 
I did that for two and half years, and then I finished the task that I was hired for and moved on to the next job which was in a family office. Then I left that job in January of this year, took a one-month holiday, and then could not yet decide what to do next. A friend of mine who has invested in some start-ups in Indonesia introduced me to some of his contacts. He asked me to help these startups with some of the financial problems that they were having. So I took on those projects, and I'm on my third project now.
 
I’m trying to figure out whether I prefer this freelancing, working on multiple projects at the same time, or being a full-time employee of a company. I’m trying to explore all of that at the moment.
 
Looking back, what seems clear to you now?
 
One thing that I’ve figured out is that I like to find solutions and then also see that problem really being solved. In the past, when I was doing consulting, sometimes we would propose a solution, but that solution might not necessarily be implemented. And that would always leave me with a sort of unfinished business kind of feeling. That’s also one of the reasons why I decided to leave private equity. With private equity, you basically become a shareholder and then you can provide guidance, but you don't really do the actual work. I need something a bit more hands-on. Being able to make a positive impact where I work is definitely one of the things that I look for.
 
I would say that the nature of jobs in the future will change. Engineers, doctors, and lawyers might not be in such high demand in the future. So in terms of choosing a college or a major or a school, it’s probably best to figure out what it is that you like to do. In the future, rather than being specialized in one particular subject, it might be worthwhile to study a breadth of subjects that could be useful for a number of situations, get a well-rounded education. That's what I feel, but we'll see.